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	<title>Comments on: Enterprise Ruby</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.amber.org/2006/11/11/enterprise-ruby/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.amber.org/2006/11/11/enterprise-ruby/</link>
	<description>Thoughts of a minor lunatic</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 20:24:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Clearing the air : Pensieri di un lunatico minore</title>
		<link>http://blog.amber.org/2006/11/11/enterprise-ruby/comment-page-1/#comment-41431</link>
		<dc:creator>Clearing the air : Pensieri di un lunatico minore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Nov 2006 02:55:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.amber.org/2006/11/11/enterprise-ruby/#comment-41431</guid>
		<description>[...] Sometimes, I do wonder whether my interpretation of the English language parallels the commonly-accepted version, and today is just such a time. Earlier, I wrote about some comments James McGovern made, and now Mr. McGovern has responded&#8212;unfortunately misrepresenting what I said, and conveniently leaving out bits. Let&#8217;s tear it does, as usual. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Sometimes, I do wonder whether my interpretation of the English language parallels the commonly-accepted version, and today is just such a time. Earlier, I wrote about some comments James McGovern made, and now Mr. McGovern has responded&#8212;unfortunately misrepresenting what I said, and conveniently leaving out bits. Let&#8217;s tear it does, as usual. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Jameson</title>
		<link>http://blog.amber.org/2006/11/11/enterprise-ruby/comment-page-1/#comment-41399</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Jameson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Nov 2006 23:54:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.amber.org/2006/11/11/enterprise-ruby/#comment-41399</guid>
		<description>A new server is only cheaper than a new developer if you only consider purchase cost and not all the licenses that go on top of it. Also, developers are cheaper if you outsource to India and quality is ten times better than in US.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A new server is only cheaper than a new developer if you only consider purchase cost and not all the licenses that go on top of it. Also, developers are cheaper if you outsource to India and quality is ten times better than in US.</p>
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		<title>By: petrilli</title>
		<link>http://blog.amber.org/2006/11/11/enterprise-ruby/comment-page-1/#comment-41351</link>
		<dc:creator>petrilli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Nov 2006 22:13:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.amber.org/2006/11/11/enterprise-ruby/#comment-41351</guid>
		<description>re: Scalability

While scalability means many things to many people, it is often the label attached to the belief that something needs to be "bigger," or perhaps just "faster." Ruby, as demonstrated by many applications, contains the bits and pieces needed to solve 90% of problems. Perhaps Java can be used to solve an additional 2-3%, but at what cost?

People often misconstrue complexity for "scalability," and the inverse is actually true. Complexity is the hubris of most architectures and is where they fail miserably. This is an unfortunate situation when many EAs are paid for their complexity. True insight, however, is in the reduction, not addition, of complexity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re: Scalability</p>
<p>While scalability means many things to many people, it is often the label attached to the belief that something needs to be &#8220;bigger,&#8221; or perhaps just &#8220;faster.&#8221; Ruby, as demonstrated by many applications, contains the bits and pieces needed to solve 90% of problems. Perhaps Java can be used to solve an additional 2-3%, but at what cost?</p>
<p>People often misconstrue complexity for &#8220;scalability,&#8221; and the inverse is actually true. Complexity is the hubris of most architectures and is where they fail miserably. This is an unfortunate situation when many EAs are paid for their complexity. True insight, however, is in the reduction, not addition, of complexity.</p>
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		<title>By: petrilli</title>
		<link>http://blog.amber.org/2006/11/11/enterprise-ruby/comment-page-1/#comment-41350</link>
		<dc:creator>petrilli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Nov 2006 22:09:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.amber.org/2006/11/11/enterprise-ruby/#comment-41350</guid>
		<description>Mr. McGovern didn't "challenge the community," instead he made wild statements that are unsubstantiated by fact. While it may be true that wild-ass speculation is more common than well-reasoned thought, it hardly makes it valuable.

If Mr. McGovern were truly trying to improve anything, other than his own visibility and traffic, he might consider spending a modicum of time understanding the technology he spouts off about.  When you make wild statements like "Ruby needs a version of JUnit," which are demonstrably false by anyone with 12 neurons and access to Google, it's really difficult to proffer more than ridicule as a response.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. McGovern didn&#8217;t &#8220;challenge the community,&#8221; instead he made wild statements that are unsubstantiated by fact. While it may be true that wild-ass speculation is more common than well-reasoned thought, it hardly makes it valuable.</p>
<p>If Mr. McGovern were truly trying to improve anything, other than his own visibility and traffic, he might consider spending a modicum of time understanding the technology he spouts off about.  When you make wild statements like &#8220;Ruby needs a version of JUnit,&#8221; which are demonstrably false by anyone with 12 neurons and access to Google, it&#8217;s really difficult to proffer more than ridicule as a response.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Jameson</title>
		<link>http://blog.amber.org/2006/11/11/enterprise-ruby/comment-page-1/#comment-41349</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Jameson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Nov 2006 22:05:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.amber.org/2006/11/11/enterprise-ruby/#comment-41349</guid>
		<description>McGovern challenged the community to find solutions  to perspectives which cannot be solved by a single person responding solely to him. Regardless if you like it or not, there are more of him than you which I guess you missed the entire point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>McGovern challenged the community to find solutions  to perspectives which cannot be solved by a single person responding solely to him. Regardless if you like it or not, there are more of him than you which I guess you missed the entire point.</p>
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		<title>By: porras</title>
		<link>http://blog.amber.org/2006/11/11/enterprise-ruby/comment-page-1/#comment-41299</link>
		<dc:creator>porras</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Nov 2006 18:56:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.amber.org/2006/11/11/enterprise-ruby/#comment-41299</guid>
		<description>Nice article!

I don't really know if I agree because I don't know very much about the Java world, but I find it very  interesting.

Just one comment: when you're talking about scalability and you say "Iâ€™ve not seen any extensive benchmarking, but I find it difficult to imagine that JRuby is any faster than the CRuby1 interpreter. Certainly Jython was never any faster than the regular Python.", I think you're missing the point. Scalability is not about performance. JRuby could be twice as slower than CRuby and still win in scalability (or viceversa).

Scalability is about the ability of a system to grow up, and is independent of performance. It is about, for example, the difficult to make a system run in a fairly large number of boxes. Ruby (I mean Rails in my case) manages this well, but I don't know about Java.

Ruby's (I mean CRuby's; I did'n try JRuby) performance is horrible. But that doesn't matter as long as:

1) It's scalable. It's easy to, say, double the number of servers running yout app.

2) Increases developer's performance.

A new server is cheaper than a new developer. Double servers + Half developers + Half time = Nice project!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice article!</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t really know if I agree because I don&#8217;t know very much about the Java world, but I find it very  interesting.</p>
<p>Just one comment: when you&#8217;re talking about scalability and you say &#8220;Iâ€™ve not seen any extensive benchmarking, but I find it difficult to imagine that JRuby is any faster than the CRuby1 interpreter. Certainly Jython was never any faster than the regular Python.&#8221;, I think you&#8217;re missing the point. Scalability is not about performance. JRuby could be twice as slower than CRuby and still win in scalability (or viceversa).</p>
<p>Scalability is about the ability of a system to grow up, and is independent of performance. It is about, for example, the difficult to make a system run in a fairly large number of boxes. Ruby (I mean Rails in my case) manages this well, but I don&#8217;t know about Java.</p>
<p>Ruby&#8217;s (I mean CRuby&#8217;s; I did&#8217;n try JRuby) performance is horrible. But that doesn&#8217;t matter as long as:</p>
<p>1) It&#8217;s scalable. It&#8217;s easy to, say, double the number of servers running yout app.</p>
<p>2) Increases developer&#8217;s performance.</p>
<p>A new server is cheaper than a new developer. Double servers + Half developers + Half time = Nice project!</p>
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		<title>By: petrilli</title>
		<link>http://blog.amber.org/2006/11/11/enterprise-ruby/comment-page-1/#comment-41201</link>
		<dc:creator>petrilli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:19:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.amber.org/2006/11/11/enterprise-ruby/#comment-41201</guid>
		<description>Oh, no disagreement that the current interpreter is painful. Ruby succeeds in-spite of its hobbled runtime. However, most larger Ruby applications tend to do a lot of metaprogramming, and that is something that, in my experience, is unbelievably painful and slow on the JVM, so I don't know that it'd be that big a performance increase.

Finally, I find that when someone in the "enterprise" complains about performance, it's even more laughable than when most "dot-commers" complain. With the exception of perhaps 10-20 companies, no internal-facing application will ever be even half as slammed as a moderately successful Internet organization. Performance just isn't the primary concern for most people, it's just the red herring everyone loves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, no disagreement that the current interpreter is painful. Ruby succeeds in-spite of its hobbled runtime. However, most larger Ruby applications tend to do a lot of metaprogramming, and that is something that, in my experience, is unbelievably painful and slow on the JVM, so I don&#8217;t know that it&#8217;d be that big a performance increase.</p>
<p>Finally, I find that when someone in the &#8220;enterprise&#8221; complains about performance, it&#8217;s even more laughable than when most &#8220;dot-commers&#8221; complain. With the exception of perhaps 10-20 companies, no internal-facing application will ever be even half as slammed as a moderately successful Internet organization. Performance just isn&#8217;t the primary concern for most people, it&#8217;s just the red herring everyone loves.</p>
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		<title>By: John Dougan</title>
		<link>http://blog.amber.org/2006/11/11/enterprise-ruby/comment-page-1/#comment-41148</link>
		<dc:creator>John Dougan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Nov 2006 11:23:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.amber.org/2006/11/11/enterprise-ruby/#comment-41148</guid>
		<description>The current standard Ruby interpreter is quite slow as it just builds an AST from the source and walks it to run the code.  I expect almost any other approach, done by someone with experience, would be noticeably better. "YARV":http://www.atdot.net/yarv/ is the current leading project in this area.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The current standard Ruby interpreter is quite slow as it just builds an AST from the source and walks it to run the code.  I expect almost any other approach, done by someone with experience, would be noticeably better. <a href="http://www.atdot.net/yarv/">YARV</a> is the current leading project in this area.</p>
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